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World Terrorism

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Jun 2017 at 03:50
Almost daily, somewhere around the world, radical extremists attack innocent civilian populations by using suicide bombers or car bombs. In each case the areas targetted are high traffic areas with no regard to age or gender. Mass murder and carnage are the aims.

Police  and other agencies seem powerless to stop these attacks. Focusing on Europe for a moment, the random attacks have been attributed to radical Islamists, some of who have been "home grown", that is, they're second or third generation nationals of the country they target.

How do authorities identify who may be a radical Islamist from the many thousands of Muslims who have migrated to Europe over the decades following World War 2. Answer: They don't. Unless the individual publicly identifies with a radical organisation or particular individual known to the agencies, or at least suspected, how could they possibly identify them. The same scenario exists around the world, and while not all extremists are Muslim, the ones gaining the most attention for their murderous activities most certainly are.

So what is the answer? I don't know. Is it the prohibition of the residents of certain countries migrating to our country? Is it more extensive overseas checking of intended visitors and migrants? How to we guard against second, third or even later generations becoming radicalised, or ever christians converting to Islam and becoming radicalised.

Perhaps other members have some idea on how to deal with this problem.


I often wonder why I try.
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2017 at 22:18
The police are not powerless to stop the attacks.  The police are not able to stop all the attacks, but they do stop some, probably the majority of complicated attacks.  They can also do things to minimize the damage of the attacks.  I seem to recall that there were no attacks on US soil after 9/11 during the George W Bush administration.  There were elsewhere.  But the secret prisons and Git-mo worked to some extent.  Barack Obama's administration saw several homegrown terrorist inspired attacks in Boston, and San Bernadino.  But really, we place too much emphasis on terrorism, too much hype.  More people probably die in traffic accidents in a day than die in a year.  We do exactly what the terrorist want us to do, feed into the chicken little sky is falling attitude inspired by the press. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2017 at 00:05
Franciscosan

Tell me please, how can the police stop all of the attacks?

Prevent some, definately.

How can the police identify all who are or may have become radicalised?

Again, some only.

The police and intelligence agencies do not, contrary to many beliefs, have all seeing, all knowing powers. They do not have the ability to tap every telephone in the world, or to intercept every piece of internet traffic. Some, yes.

In this matter, like many who have no law enforcement or intelligence agency background, you simplify what is a very complicated matter and point the finger directly at the police. The finger needs to pointed at each and every one of us to be more vigilant.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 00:57
You probably have more chance of slipping in your bathtub and dying from that, then you have of dying in a terrorist attack in the first world.  But if you want to go all chicken little, the sky is falling, over attacks, you can.  I recognize the limitations of the police, and as far as a cost/benefit analysis, I recognize that they are not able to stop everything.  But that its just adding to the list of things that they cannot stop, but to some degree manage.  If the media would stop adding oxygen to these various fires, they might burn out more quickly, and hurt less.  But anybody who wants the media to give them eternal fame (infamy) can do so by committing assorted mayhem. No news is good news, which means that the good doesn't sell, whereas if it bleeds it leads.
Why in the h... should I tell you how police can stop all attacks, did you read my previous post?  If you want to ring your hands about how all can be stopped and all radicalized identified, you should join Donald Trump, he thinks it can be done, I don't.  Maximize the good, minimize the bad, hope that it is enough to cut down the use of terrorism (in this case by some radicalized muslims) to a slow trickle.  But terrorists are motivated by the same kind of media attention that serial killer's get.  It is not only a problem with terrorists basking in the sun, but other criminals as well.

If people, when they heard about a terrorist event, would turn off the radio or the TV, which after all is going to go on and on about it ad nauseum for the next day.  If people would turn it off until it calmed down, maybe the media outlets would have less motivation to endlessly regurgitate the report.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 02:09
Again, you're simply wrong!
It's not Chicken Little and there's no requirement for a cost/benefit analysis. We're talking about human lives, about whole communities.

I agree to a certain extent that media coverage could be adding fuel to the fire, but in a democracy, you can't ban media reporting.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2017 at 03:54
I am not simply wrong, I may be complexly wrong, but I definitely am not simply wrong.

There always is a cost/benefit analysis.  Either it is overt, or it is tacit. There are limits to everything.  That is what bureaucracies are for.  A police commissioner has to decide where to dedicate resources, and manpower for the purpose of trying to get justice.  If you spend all your money on shoplifting, you might not have enough for serious crimes, but if you don't contribute money to jaywalking, the increasing friction and havoc in society might contribute to more serious crimes.

Did I say "ban media reporting."?  Individuals and the press have rights, but in carrying out those rights, they also have a responsibility.  But unfortunately in pursuing a story, it is not their rights and responsibilities they are concerned with, but the pursuit of the all mighty dollar.  Principles go by the wayside as it is a race to the bottom.  Or rather, they have principles when they want to have principles, which injures the credibility when they should be trusted on matters such as Trump.  They should generally be trusted on Trump.  That is not to say they are not bias, but they are pretty honest, and upfront about their rocky relationship with him.  He is the one who makes it that way, keeping them back on their heels.  But, in any case, their highlight on violence makes it appear to radicals that violence is the answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carroll090 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 03:31
Terrorism attacks often broke out in Europe country. I totally agree on your ideas. The most important thing to reduce terrorism attacks is to enact stricker immigration laws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 22:09
Terrorism is a flashy issue that gets people and the media all hot and bothered, but truth is that more people die in car crashes, or falling down stairs, or slipping in the tub in a day, then die every year in terrorism.  1) are you sure that enacting stricter immigration laws is going to cut back on terrorism?  It is more often people already here that are being radicalized and getting into terrorism, 2) it could be that enacting stricter immigration laws is just going to make the immigrant community feel besieged, and radicalize them more.  The exception in the US to that is young men from the Somali community, that become radicalized but go over there to fight.  Not really that much of an exception, because they typically don't do terrorist attacks over here.
Are you sure that terrorism is really the issue that restricting immigration is going to solve?  I think that for some people there is a bit of disingenuousness.  Bad faith proclaiming that immigration is about terrorism, not about other things.  That does not mean that there is not bad faith on the pro-immigration side too, insisting that America is all about taking "your poor huddled masses," etc, etc.  Whereas, America has also had its times of restrictive immigration policy.  I think there are legitimate concerns about how restrictive immigration policy should be.  I am not sure that the boogie man of terrorism has much to do with that.  Or rather, I am sure that the boogie-man of terrorism has a lot to do with that, in that immigration can be used as as scare tactic to frighten women and children, stampede people in a "useful" direction, but to truly solve anything?  I kind of doubt that.  Again, muggings and regular murders result in much higher statistics, even things like gang drivebys, 'accidentally' getting 'civilians.'

What goes "clop, clop, bang, bang, clop, clop, bang, bang."?  Amish driveby shooting. Clap 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 02:00
The problem confronting western countries today is not the laws that are in place but the procedures that are needed to check on the background of the intended migrants.

In Australia we have found that many have arrived with no forms of identification, passports etc, at all, and immigration officials have then to set about investigating their bona fides. It's not easy.

Most of them should be immediately deported to the country of birth, but they claim religeous or other persecution and that their lives are in danger. So, on a humanitarian basis, they are allowed to remain, albeit in refugee camps while their identities are checked.

There is no doubt that some with terrorist ideas slip through the net, both here and overseas.

The fact that road deaths claim more lives than terrorism is cold comfort to Parisians or Londoners who don't know when or where th next bomb will explode, and of course, this is a victory for the terrorists.

And I don't agree with your attempt at humour by picking on the Amish, a simple peace loving people who live by rules which, perhaps, wouldn't hurt the rest of us in many ways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 04:58
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The problem confronting western countries today is not the laws that are in place but the procedures that are needed to check on the background of the intended migrants.

In Australia we have found that many have arrived with no forms of identification, passports etc, at all, and immigration officials have then to set about investigating their bona fides. It's not easy.

Most of them should be immediately deported to the country of birth, but they claim religeous or other persecution and that their lives are in danger. So, on a humanitarian basis, they are allowed to remain, albeit in refugee camps while their identities are checked.

There is no doubt that some with terrorist ideas slip through the net, both here and overseas.

The fact that road deaths claim more lives than terrorism is cold comfort to Parisians or Londoners who don't know when or where th next bomb will explode, and of course, this is a victory for the terrorists.

And I don't agree with your attempt at humour by picking on the Amish, a simple peace loving people who live by rules which, perhaps, wouldn't hurt the rest of us in many ways.

Spot on!
We have to know who the migrants or refugees or anyone needs to prove their identity. When it's not possible they should be detained but not punished just as Mexican illegals are. War refugees are different that kind of asylum is overseen by the dept of Homeland Security. 

Can't stomach the civilian murders, yes it has the intended effect on me. This particular crop of terrorists may dominate the middle east for another generation, international agencies will keep chasing them. 

Terrorism and anarchist are going to bring the boot down on our necks. The end of personal liberties bc of crimes resulting in high death tolls seems unavoidable. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 00:39
Every time a terrorist attack happens the politicians, the people and the press wring their hands, and lament over what could possibly be done to stop it.  Thus giving the terrorists exactly the attention they want.  Same thing with these mass shootings in the United States, except that they are more purely nihilistic than the terrorists.  So, what can we do?  We can do lots of things and we are doing lots of things, but nothing we do has an absolute guarantee, we just need to work on maximizing the positive and minimizing the negative.  "Common sensical," simplistic answers are just that, simplistic.  If you think the answer is obvious, it probably is not.  Of course, having a common sensical answer that doesn't work doesn't change the politicians from initiating it, and then changing the goal posts making retroactively the problem fit the "solution."

So let's say you have traffic deaths, murder deaths and terrorist deaths.  Where do you put your money for solutions?  How many murder deaths do you have to have to equal a terrorist death?  How many traffic deaths do you have to have to equal a terrorist death.  I mean obviously this kind of thinking is artificial.  They don't equate.  & A politician is never going to have to explain to the surviving family of a car crash victim that more money could have been spent on road safety, but the money was all going to enact frivolous measures that don't really effect the incidence of terrorism.  But, we got to realize there is only so much money for the pie, and if you add to something you might have to take away from something else.  Big cities are going to get the American Federal tax dollars, there is always some excuse for them to get it whether it is terrorism or something else, small towns generally don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 01:43
Franciscosan

Quote Every time a terrorist attack happens the politicians, the people and the press wring their hands, and lament over what could possibly be done to stop it.  Thus giving the terrorists exactly the attention they want.  Same thing with these mass shootings in the United States, except that they are more purely nihilistic than the terrorists.  So, what can we do?  We can do lots of things and we are doing lots of things, but nothing we do has an absolute guarantee, we just need to work on maximizing the positive and minimizing the negative.  "Common sensical," simplistic answers are just that, simplistic.  If you think the answer is obvious, it probably is not.  Of course, having a common sensical answer that doesn't work doesn't change the politicians from initiating it, and then changing the goal posts making retroactively the problem fit the "solution."

Your point being?

Quote So let's say you have traffic deaths, murder deaths and terrorist deaths.  Where do you put your money for solutions?  How many murder deaths do you have to have to equal a terrorist death?  How many traffic deaths do you have to have to equal a terrorist death.  I mean obviously this kind of thinking is artificial.  They don't equate.  & A politician is never going to have to explain to the surviving family of a car crash victim that more money could have been spent on road safety, but the money was all going to enact frivolous measures that don't really effect the incidence of terrorism.  But, we got to realize there is only so much money for the pie, and if you add to something you might have to take away from something else.  Big cities are going to get the American Federal tax dollars, there is always some excuse for them to get it whether it is terrorism or something else, small towns generally don't.

IMO, your entire post sounds like an apology for the world failure to stop terrorism, especially, say, in the west.

In the case of international terrorists crossing our borders, governments can do only so much, which, I believe, they're doing. The other issue is the "home grown" terrorists. Those who have parents or grandparents born in Muslim countries and who themselves follow the faith, or those who have converted to Islam. How many times have we seen TV clips from the UK where shocked neighbours have commented on what "a good quiet boy" an arrested terrorist was?

What you miss Frank, is that the problem is not just one for governments and their agencies, it's a problem for every one of us. Every single citizen who sees, hear or suspects something of this nature should report it to a responsible agency so that it can be investigated. No more of the usual, "None of my business."

Reporting suspicious activity is a responsibility, it goes with the territory of living in the Free World.

It's time for us all to STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 03:49
What is the political objective of the jihad? 

If there was some sort of organized political hierarchy then maybe there could be a cease fire. No one terrorist, homegrown or otherwise has the same motivation. 

Doesn't it seem more personal on the part of the killer, to target little girls at a concert ? VS running away to join ISIS? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 08:19
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

What is the political objective of the jihad? 

If there was some sort of organized political hierarchy then maybe there could be a cease fire. No one terrorist, homegrown or otherwise has the same motivation. 

Doesn't it seem more personal on the part of the killer, to target little girls at a concert ? VS running away to join ISIS? 

1. Not sure that there really is political motivation, more religeous dominance I think;
2. The only political type hierarchy that I know of in the terrorist world is HAMAS, in Palestine, which seeks both political and religeous dominance; and
3. I think that the targetting of obviously innocent civilians is more of an attention seeking exercise rather than hoping to attain some political, or even religeous goal.

In a similar vein, the brutal slaughter of prisoners by hacking off their heads with a knife, recorded and televised, is just a display, a "look at me".

The above response is the opinion of toyomotor alone and is based on his personal observations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 20:41
Agree, and look at Barcelona now. This is going to increase attacks on civilian Muslims. Not fair but can you see any other trajectory?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 01:14
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Agree, and look at Barcelona now. This is going to increase attacks on civilian Muslims. Not fair but can you see any other trajectory?

No, not now or in the forseeable future.

As long as the Jihadists launch attacks on innocent civilian populations, including their own, there will be suspicion from other sectors of the community, how could it be otherwise when your enemy could be your neighbour?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 hours 50 minutes ago at 20:49
That is an interesting question.  How many attacks, in this case by Muslim "Jihadists," (terrorists) are in areas that the perpetrators are familiar with?  Do they attack in their own neighborhood, or is it always or almost always somewhere else?  Of course, "jihad" means struggle, it is not necessarily armed struggle, although I seem to remember there is a great deal of emphasis on the warrior in the Koran.  That is a little ironic considering how poor Arab militaries tend to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 hours 46 minutes ago at 00:53
The Muslim terrorists/Jihadists apparently aren't too choosey whether it's their own people or others that they maim and kill. 

The battle between Sunni and Shia could be in some ways likened to the wars between Anglican and Catholics-they go on forever at the cost of thousands of lives.

Other attacks of foreign soil are aimed at intimidating residents and tourists, but in fact are having the reverse attack. These are often carried out by home grown terrorists.

So there is no one answer to your question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 15 minutes ago at 11:24
Quote How can the police identify all who are or may have become radicalised?
By intelligence, observation, and criminal detection. The British intelligence services have admitted in parliamentary hearings that they currently have thirty thousand individuals on their suspect lists but don't have the resources to properly investigate that number of people.
 
Note that after terrorist acts we often hear on the news that the responsible individual was known to the Police.
 
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