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Y import 4 some1 2 look like you?

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    Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 00:43
There seems to be a belief that it is good for people's heroes to look like them, so that they can imagine themselves in their heroes' shoes, imitate them and become like them.  Therefore, we must have minorities prominently displayed in our movies and TV shows, for purposes of sparking the imagination of youngsters who may be watching.  It seems to me that this is rather narrow-minded, but I would like to hear others on this topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 00:53
franciscosan

I think you're skating on very thin ice here.

IMHO, the inclusion of minorities in movies and TV programs is an indication that the American film and TV industry has finally realised that there is untapped talent out there, it it just happens to be black, latino or whatever, other than WASP.

The days of movie and/or TV stars being the best built, most beautiful in the world have gone. Life's not like that. Heroes are everyday people who do extraordinary things, and they have warts and blemishes, so what?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 01:18
I am not arguing with the inclusion of minorities in movies.  I am wondering whether the imagination is as limited as they say it is.  If someone could imagine going into space medicine watching doctor McCoy, then are they going to let a little thing like ethnicity trip them up?  In fact, if only whites can be models for whites, then maybe movies should just have white characters, because that is (for now) the majority of the population.  Personally, _I_ can imagine blacks as models for whites, and whites as models for blacks, etc.  But maybe that is not a very realistic view point.  Personally, I would like to see a high budget science fiction space epic, with a Latino-Arabic-Black African perspective.  I mean, the best places to build a ladder to the stars are from Kilimanjaro and Ecuador.  How would the Quaran adopt to zero G?
I would like to see that.  So, Toyomotor, quit trying to read so much into my question, and try to answer it.  How necessary is it for a model to "look" like you in order to be useful as a model?

There are a few black ski fi writers who got out of the ghetto, because they had science fiction to encourage them, they kept their heads down and focused.  Now of course, print stories don't necessarily get into what color the main character is, and so there is usually no reason to see the character as white or black or purple.  But would that be important in the encouragement of these black sci-fi writers, or would they have adopted, no matter what the conditions might be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 11:44
franciscosan wrote
Quote So, Toyomotor, quit trying to read so much into my question, and try to answer it.  How necessary is it for a model to "look" like you in order to be useful as a model?

I don't think I read to much into your post, but if I did, I apologise. It's difficult sometimes to understand precisely what you're getting at.

As an apparent WASP, at least phenotypically, if someone looked like me, there's no way they could hope to succeed in a modeling career.

But to address your question more succinctly, no, to conform to a social "norm" is not required in order to useful as a model. Take Grace Jones for example, IMHO, you wouldn't find a more scary looking woman. But she's been a successful model.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 23:29
The formative years would matter in determining who be a hero. White kids with black heroes was not something I saw as a kid but now I see lots of white kids who have black cultural heroes. Sports have changed so much, seems like culture has the most juice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 23:35
By "model," I mean "example," which could be a model, but it could be a dumpy little guy who is an engineer.  
Grace Jones, like Hillary Swank, is a better man than I am, I am not saying that either are not feminine, just that their physical ability and general competency are amazing.

But maybe you could be a character actor;)  Matters what you want.  Cary Grant could never have been a character actor.  Someone once said to him, "I wish I was Cary Grant."  to which Cary Grant replied, "You want to be Cary Grant?  Everybody wants to Cary Grant.  Heck, I want to be Cary Grant."

A friend told me that the Crosby Show, showing an upper middle class black family (sitcom), made blacks feel bad about themselves, because compared to the show they felt that they were not making it.  Some shows or characters initially make minorities feel good about themselves, but eventually the shows wear on them, because the characters become a stereotype, and start characterizing how they (the minorities) are treated in real life.  Cheech and Chong is an example of humorous stereotypes that became a cliche.

I am saying what once was expansive becomes restrictive.  What once was a novel, fresh look at something, becomes a cliche.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done in the first place, but I do hope that writers or directors won't be so formulaic in the first place.  TV shows are probably the worst, because they are serial productions that will last for years if successful.  Aristotle criticized serial productions in his time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 23:54
Do you remember the reason Aristotle's serials were criticized?

I agree it will slip into formulaic scripting- not found in nature- and it will be interesting to see if whites are continually degraded. And minorities depicted as  the Cosby doctor/lawyer power couple. I heard similar complaints about Cosby show and an unrealistic representation of successful black people as well as alienation from the youth low income group. Cosby's criticism of poor blacks wasn't well received.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 09:14
I suppose for American youth who are sports fans, it would be a bit difficult not to want to emulate some of the best athletes in the US who just happen to be black.

Everyone's track hero is black, and he's held in the highest regard around the world.

Likewise, over the past decade or so, more and more black people have emerged as highly entertaining actors, singers and so on. All people in a position to influence the views of others.

Rap? White men can't rap!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 02:19
Vanuatu, I'll have to look up Aristotle in the Poetics, or if I forget long enough, I'll summarize my own understanding of it:P

They don't just "happen" to be black.  They are black.  That includes culturally to a great extent.  Of course there is some prejudice in the black community, calling people "Oreo" who are "black on the outside, white on the inside."  You also have the name (Uncle) Tom or Thomas used in a derogatory fashion, by blacks against blacks who are more conservative in their political outlook.  (Like Justice Thomas, or Thomas Sowell.  This all is something that is different than the bias in the black community towards light skin blacks, against dark skin blacks.  And then it gets confusing because you have a white kid who wants to be black like some rapper, without at least at first understanding what that means.

But how much does it matter whether some minority kid sees someone who looks like him, who he wants to emulate?  And how much does it matter _because_ we say it should matter?  Isn't that a little shallow?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 04:26
franciscosan wrote 
Quote They don't just "happen" to be black.  They are black.

Picky, picky!

Quote Of course there is some prejudice in the black community, calling people "Oreo" who are "black on the outside, white on the inside."  You also have the name (Uncle) Tom or Thomas used in a derogatory fashion, by blacks against blacks who are more conservative in their political outlook.  (Like Justice Thomas, or Thomas Sowell.  This all is something that is different than the bias in the black community towards light skin blacks, against dark skin blacks. 

Agreed, but hardly relevant.

Are you saying that some black kids want to emulate white entertainers and others?

Some white people would align themselves with white actors etc. I suppose it's only natural because they look more like me than a black person.

Try as I might, I could never resemble a black person, not that it would be bad if I was black.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 22:39
No, it is not that they "happen" to be black, it is that they_are_ black.  It is important, because people often say that they want to live in a "color-blind" society.  But for someone who is black or red, or yellow, that may mean that they are supposed to act "white," and they don't want to do that.  So it does matter to them, and therefore it matters to me.

If they are skilled actors and decent people, then they are worthy of emulation on both a professional and a personal level.  Whatever their skin color may be.  There may be a level at which they shouldn't be personally emulated and/or professionally emulated, but that just means that at a certain level, there may be qualities that the 'master' has that the 'student' can not emulate, due tp their personal character, which may depend on natural and nurtured characteristics (including race).

Should, for example, black actors play Shakespearean parts, besides just Othello?  Sure, why not?  Shakespeare is very "artificial" (made with art) and can easily be adapted and adopted.  Face it, originally all the female parts in Shakespeare were played by boys.  We don't do that any more.
"Porky and Bess" by Gershwin, however, when it was written, there was a famous "black-face" performer (Caucasian with shoe-polish), who wanted the lead role, and Gershwin said no, therefore it had (and still has) an all black cast.  Part of what "Porky and Bess" is about is poor, black, sharecroppers (or so I seem to remember), and it would be weird to have a white cast for that.  Also, when Gershwin wrote it, there was a lot of racism in the States, and so the fact that he explicitly wanted and had a black cast says something.

There was I guy at the coffeehouse that had a joke something about do you ever think you would see the day, when the number one golfer was black (Tiger Woods) (its been a few years), and the number one rapper was white (Eminem)?  I would hope that people would what to emulate someone professionally because of their skill, and someone personally because of their ethics.  There may be other factors that should be involved, but personally I don't think race 'should be' at the top of the list, then again, maybe in saying that, I am just being "color-blind."  I admit I may be wrong about that, but I like to think that I have some rhyme and reason to my argument.  In other words, well thought out, but not necessarily conclusive. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 01:27
franciscosan

Your posts of late seem to go on for ages without really saying anything. Or at least not adding to the discussion, rather laying down your personal philosophy or quoting ancient scholars.

When looking for someone to emulate, I suppose a lot also rests on your culture. I'm sure what you believe to be true of the US would not be the same in Britain or Australia-and I'm only referring to English speaking countries, I know.

Apart from culture, there no doubt would be personal psychological reasons why an individual chooses his/her role models etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 21:19
Yes, there are personal psychological reasons for why an individual chooses their role models.  Or, you might say it is a subconscious choice.  But there are good choices and bad choices, and as a society we want people to make good choices.  All I am really saying is people shouldn't exclude learning from certain people before looking at them.  I cannot imagine that Neil DeGrasse Tyson (astrophysicist) had a lot of black role models in astrophysics before he went into the field.  And yet he got into it and is successful.  He probably didn't get into it because of a black mentor.  Now young black men (and others) can look at him as a model now.  But you don't have to have someone who looks like you to get there.  Is that so strange? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 23:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, there are personal psychological reasons for why an individual chooses their role models.  Or, you might say it is a subconscious choice.  But there are good choices and bad choices, and as a society we want people to make good choices.  All I am really saying is people shouldn't exclude learning from certain people before looking at them.  I cannot imagine that Neil DeGrasse Tyson (astrophysicist) had a lot of black role models in astrophysics before he went into the field.  And yet he got into it and is successful.  He probably didn't get into it because of a black mentor.  Now young black men (and others) can look at him as a model now.  But you don't have to have someone who looks like you to get there.  Is that so strange? 

Nope, and again, I agree with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2017 at 01:06
You should understand that when a philosopher sneezes, it makes ten pages.  We tend to be a little wordy.  I'll try to keep it down, and get to the point.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 00:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, there are personal psychological reasons for why an individual chooses their role models.  Or, you might say it is a subconscious choice.  But there are good choices and bad choices, and as a society we want people to make good choices.  All I am really saying is people shouldn't exclude learning from certain people before looking at them.  I cannot imagine that Neil DeGrasse Tyson (astrophysicist) had a lot of black role models in astrophysics before he went into the field.  And yet he got into it and is successful.  He probably didn't get into it because of a black mentor.  Now young black men (and others) can look at him as a model now.  But you don't have to have someone who looks like you to get there.  Is that so strange? 

Nope, and again, I agree with you.

DeGrasse Tyson has said that Carl Sagan was his mentor. He has also been accused of exaggerating that relationship. I suppose if Mean Joe Green gives you his  football jersey, and it's the one and only time you meet him, that kind of excitement could last a lifetime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 06:41
I know not of whom you speak or in this case, write.

Now, if Gary ABLETT, either Junior or Senior were to sign an autograph for me, I wouldn't call the Queen my cousin. Which, in case you didn't know, she isn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 00:26
[QUOTE=toyomotor]I know not of whom you speak or in this case, write.

Now, if Gary ABLETT, either Junior or Senior were to sign an autograph for me, I wouldn't call the Queen my cousin. Which, in case you didn't know, she isn't.
[/QUOTE
Famous TV commercial 1979, kid gets a jersey from Mean Joe Green famous defensive tackle NFL Pittsburgh Steelers 

Queen's your cousin/ is that like Bob's your Uncle? 
It was a big deal at one time. Now with a number of NFL players "taking a knee" meaning refusing to stand for the National Anthem before football games, these guys are fast losing their stellar quality. Colin Kaepernick (NFL take a knee bc of police violence) is more like Gary Ablett, he's a free agent who has proven to be a liability.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 03:57
Vanuatu-Gary ABLETT is certainly not a liability-never has been, never will be.

No, not calling the Queen your cousin is an expression of pride in an achievement, like winning the lottery.

"To take a knee" is a term from the middle ages when, instead of bowing, a man would extend a bent knee in deference to someone else. You know, back in the times when men wore wigs, makeup, and sometimes perfume.

Our sportsmen and women, apart from the a...hole Anthony Mundine (boxer) stand for the National Anthem, although I think some of them don't know the words.
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Watching a TV News clip about the life of the legendary, the late Chuck Berry.

The commentator rightly pointed out that Chuck "invented" Rock and Roll, and was emulated and adored by many young performers who later went on to become superstars in their own right.

The number of white performers who took up Chucks music style is immeasurable.

Another black American performer whose music was picked up by many white country music performers is Charley Pride.

We could go on to mention Nat King Cole, Satchmo Louie Armstrong, and many many more. All black Americans, and all loved by whites.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 04:07
toyomotor ever heard of Chuck Berry and that video?   

Agreed his rockin' was hoppin' but he was a weird sob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 21:54
I haven't heard about that video.  
What kind of rating should it be?  
I don't want anything graphic.  

I would not use the word "love" in describing how one feels about an artist doing their art, no matter how
wonderful their art might be.  "Love" is more a 'for better or worse' kind of thing.  If your heart embraces someone, when they are projectile vomiting, and it is flowing out the other end as well.  Well, at least that is one kind of love.  Good times with musicians are good times,  one might admire them, but something more is needed to turn it into love.  Billy Crystal and his wife, Patrick Swayze and his wife, were committed to one another.  They were in love.  Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt and countless other of the Hollywood crowd, good times, and when the good times were gone, so was the relationship.
As Fleetwood Mac sings,"A player only loves you when he's playing."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:32
I never watched it just read descriptions of it and that was enough. Think of what Trump was accused of doing in a Russian hotel- squared.

Not a case of bad judgement like Jerry Lewis acting as a clown pied piper leading children to the ovens WW2. It's a just a bizarre fetish. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 00:04
Another black icon who in his personal life has feet of clay?  I think that when you are successful and everything is going for you, that perhaps it is easier to fail as being just a human being.  It is not that others would necessarily 'succeed' in those situations, it is just that they are protected by not having the opportunity to take advantage of.  The person I am disappointed in, is Bill Cosby and how predatory he turned out to be.  I grew up on his comedy, Fat Albert and pudding pops commercials.  Now his cultural legacy is compromised, because of him being a predator, drugging young women and raping them.  His PG personality was hiding a hard core 'XXX' interior.  If he was a raunchy comedian, then one could understand it better, but he wasn't.  How does one let one's kids listen to him now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 03:16
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor ever heard of Chuck Berry and that video?   

Agreed his rockin' was hoppin' but he was a weird sob

No, I haven't. Could I have a clue of what it was about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 03:20
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Another black icon who in his personal life has feet of clay?  I think that when you are successful and everything is going for you, that perhaps it is easier to fail as being just a human being.  It is not that others would necessarily 'succeed' in those situations, it is just that they are protected by not having the opportunity to take advantage of.  The person I am disappointed in, is Bill Cosby and how predatory he turned out to be.  I grew up on his comedy, Fat Albert and pudding pops commercials.  Now his cultural legacy is compromised, because of him being a predator, drugging young women and raping them.  His PG personality was hiding a hard core 'XXX' interior.  If he was a raunchy comedian, then one could understand it better, but he wasn't.  How does one let one's kids listen to him now?

Personally, I have great suspicions about 30 or 40 year old allegations which are made against the rich and famous. I find it hard to believe that someone who was so traumatised at the time would not have told someone much earlier.

Funny that not many "average Joes" aren't the subject of the same allegations, or at least that's the way it seems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 12:50
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor ever heard of Chuck Berry and that video?   

Agreed his rockin' was hoppin' but he was a weird sob

No, I haven't. Could I have a clue of what it was about?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 12:57
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Another black icon who in his personal life has feet of clay?  I think that when you are successful and everything is going for you, that perhaps it is easier to fail as being just a human being.  It is not that others would necessarily 'succeed' in those situations, it is just that they are protected by not having the opportunity to take advantage of.  The person I am disappointed in, is Bill Cosby and how predatory he turned out to be.  I grew up on his comedy, Fat Albert and pudding pops commercials.  Now his cultural legacy is compromised, because of him being a predator, drugging young women and raping them.  His PG personality was hiding a hard core 'XXX' interior.  If he was a raunchy comedian, then one could understand it better, but he wasn't.  How does one let one's kids listen to him now?

Personally, I have great suspicions about 30 or 40 year old allegations which are made against the rich and famous. I find it hard to believe that someone who was so traumatized at the time would not have told someone much earlier.

Funny that not many "average Joes" aren't the subject of the same allegations, or at least that's the way it seems.
Maybe the average Joe pervert has a good chance of conviction. Try taking on one of America's iconic success stories and the accuser gets the public grilling, usually. 
Also very likely that some of the stories are embellished or made up since it's all a fog of the past.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 14:22

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Quote Another black icon who in his personal life has feet of clay?



Like there are no white icons with feet of clay?

Where shall I start?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 15:27
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor ever heard of Chuck Berry and that video?   

Agreed his rockin' was hoppin' but he was a weird sob

No, I haven't. Could I have a clue of what it was about?

My Dove,


Just a much misunderstood young man, who grew into a much misunderstood old man.
But at least we know about him. It seems that as time goes by, more and more of the rich and famous are being outed for their perversions.

Personally, being a father of six children child pornography disgusts and angers me.

(No, I didn't father all of them.)
God created 2nd Lieutenants for the amusement of Senior NCO's.
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