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yDNA Adam alone?

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    Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 15:58
The sciences would have us believe that all males alive on earth today are descended from one man, referred to as yDNA Adam.

But this conclusion must be based on the yDNA samples gathered from around the world to date, compared to the world male population, a minute number by any standards.

This idea could be completely turned on its head if further, more conclusive testing found another male source.

With advancing technology, it could be found, for example, that yDNA Adam had brothers, this could provide an explanation for genetic mutations over time.

Would could the likelihood be, for example, that yDNA Adam in fact did have brothers who bred, but their entire lines died out very early.

Seems unlikely to me.

What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 16:12
I honestly have no idea, but I would be positively fascinated to see further discussion on this. It seems like an interesting scientific argument with potential religious ramifications. I wish I were learned enough to contribute more than my interest, but I shall have to remain in my corner, eagerly awaiting the course of this conversation.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 16:21
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

I honestly have no idea, but I would be positively fascinated to see further discussion on this. It seems like an interesting scientific argument with potential religious ramifications. I wish I were learned enough to contribute more than my interest, but I shall have to remain in my corner, eagerly awaiting the course of this conversation.

-Akolouthos


I don't really see a religious ramification in this, purely on the basis that committed Christian, Muslims etc. believe in the Creation Theory and won't budge. And if they do budge, it will be to fit the new findings to suit their various religious beliefs-and I mean no offence to anyone by this comment.

The post is in the Speculative History category, so you don't need to have a PhD to join in, just an opinion or a theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 17:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


With advancing technology, it could be found, for example, that yDNA Adam had brothers, this could provide an explanation for genetic mutations over time.

Would could the likelihood be, for example, that yDNA Adam in fact did have brothers who bred, but their entire lines died out very early.

Seems unlikely to me.

What do you think?
What exactly are You questioning? This is not about all lines but only all "only male" lines as far as I understand. If on average each male had one male descendant, some would leave more, and some only females.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 18:34
maybe some havn't noticed it,
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929713000736


Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 18:50
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


With advancing technology, it could be found, for example, that yDNA Adam had brothers, this could provide an explanation for genetic mutations over time.

Would could the likelihood be, for example, that yDNA Adam in fact did have brothers who bred, but their entire lines died out very early.

Seems unlikely to me.

What do you think?

What exactly are You questioning? This is not about all lines but only all "only male" lines as far as I understand. If on average each male had one male descendant, some would leave more, and some only females.


Don't forget this is speculative!

What I'm questioning is the likelihood of all other males lines dying out at a very early stage, leaving on the descendants of one man, and for that matter, in the case mtDNA Eve, one woman.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 18:53
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

maybe some havn't noticed it,
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929713000736



I don't propose to discuss anything with you in future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 18:55
Pity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 19:28
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Pity!



Well why not put up a reasonable argument against what I'm theorising instead of simply detracting from my posts?

The topic is out there for discussion, not simply to throw stones at.

Debate me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 20:07
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



Don't forget this is speculative!
Your OP was about (un)likelihood, as I understood it.
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


What I'm questioning is the likelihood of all other males lines dying out at a very early stage, leaving on the descendants of one man, and for that matter, in the case mtDNA Eve, one woman.
You gave an example, that "Adam" could have brothers, leaving male lines untill today. Then this "Adam" would not be the "ancestor-father", but his father would be. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 20:45
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



Don't forget this is speculative!
Your OP was about (un)likelihood, as I understood it.
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


What I'm questioning is the likelihood of all other males lines dying out at a very early stage, leaving on the descendants of one man, and for that matter, in the case mtDNA Eve, one woman.
You gave an example, that "Adam" could have brothers, leaving male lines untill today. Then this "Adam" would not be the "ancestor-father", but his father would be. 


Yes, but there has been no explanation yet as to yDNA Adams father or mtDNA Eves mother. I can only assume that they were Neaderthals and that Adam and Eve were mutations, which would of course explain the lack of siblings in our yDNA and mtDNA lines.

But how far apart were these two originals born?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 20:56
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



Don't forget this is speculative!
Your OP was about (un)likelihood, as I understood it.
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


What I'm questioning is the likelihood of all other males lines dying out at a very early stage, leaving on the descendants of one man, and for that matter, in the case mtDNA Eve, one woman.
You gave an example, that "Adam" could have brothers, leaving male lines untill today. Then this "Adam" would not be the "ancestor-father", but his father would be. 


Yes, but there has been no explanation yet as to yDNA Adams father or mtDNA Eves mother. I can only assume that they were Neaderthals and that Adam and Eve were mutations, which would of course explain the lack of siblings in our yDNA and mtDNA lines.

But how far apart were these two originals born?
As I see it there is no problem here at all. The only one could be a matter of chosing words, and "Adam" and "Eve" is not to be taken litterally at all. There could be any numbers of fathers and mothers contemporary with the only leaving an unbroken line of same sex offspring. Let us look at any of us having two kids in a lifetime. There would be 25% chance they will be both of the opposite sex. Over so many generations the chance for each  having an unbroken line of male - or female - descendants, seems very small.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 21:20
The y-dna adam was once supposed to go back ca. 60.000 years, then it was around the age of the mt Eva and as I showed with the link, it goes back now even 300 ky or maybe up to more than 500ky. So the y-dna adam is older than modern sapiens. If we keep in mind, that the number for modern humans around 60-70ky BP is supposed to be a few thousand, then I see no reason to question a genetic adam.
I am doing family research. I have some noble lines among my ancestors. So I can trace these lines fortunally back more than 30, 40 sometimes 50 generations. Everybody who deals with genealogy knows the effect of a pedigree collaps. That is comparable with the genetic Adam. We have a genetic pedigree collapse here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 21:23
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

You gave an example, that "Adam" could have brothers, leaving male lines untill today. Then this "Adam" would not be the "ancestor-father", but his father would be. 

Med venlig hilsen til Danmark, tak!Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 21:52
Fatasus:
"Over so many generations the chance for each having an unbroken line of male - or female - descendants, seems very small."

I agree. The names Adam and Eve, in this context, are merely identifiers of two individuals who lived, and died, after giving rise to blood lines that have extended down through the ages.

My question remains, what if, with increased genetic testing and the advancement of technology, it was discovered that there were people on earth who could not be descendants of yDNA Adam or mtDNA Eve.

Please don't muddy the water with references to Adams father or Eves mother, it leads to total brain fade!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 15:23
I would suggest looking at the DNA evidence for the progeny of Genghis Kahn.  There is something like 12 million of them.  I think the SOP of an invasion was kill all the men, and have the king impregnate all the women.  There are other cases where you have huge blocks of population that are all descended from a local ancient king.  My point is that if a king controls the women of a community, it may be that the other men do not survive genetically, or very minimally.  The king gets to play stud for all the women. The diversity of the Ydna strand might be very thin in certain areas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2015 at 13:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I would suggest looking at the DNA evidence for the progeny of Genghis Kahn.  There is something like 12 million of them.  I think the SOP of an invasion was kill all the men, and have the king impregnate all the women.  There are other cases where you have huge blocks of population that are all descended from a local ancient king.  My point is that if a king controls the women of a community, it may be that the other men do not survive genetically, or very minimally.  The king gets to play stud for all the women. The diversity of the Ydna strand might be very thin in certain areas.
 
All "facts" as we currently know them are temporary in nature.
 
As technology improves, so knowledge improves, and it could well turn out, at some future time, that yDNA Adam and mtDNA Eve are joined by Fred and Mary.
 
There are already findings of humanoid skeletal remains suggestive of the fact that there were others besides the Neanderthals and Denisovans roaming the planet at the same time as AMH, and interbreeding.
 
The information on these people will become clearer with more research and the increase of technology, so, as I've said many times before, what is true today may well be turned on it's head tomorrow.
 
 
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