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Yes, we love wine for a looong time!

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    Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 19:42
It is a fact, our wine producing/drinking habits are at least 6000 years old! In Armenia the oldest winery was found!

More to read here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110111-oldest-wine-press-making-winery-armenia-science-ucla/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 20:40
In vino veritas... *hiccup* gratias... *hiccup*

Edited by Panther - 11 Jan 2011 at 20:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 21:11
Ah, a narrative on potent potables (with all due apologies to Jeopardy), whose historical roots are older than agriculture itself!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 00:17


I have a lot of curiousity for the Native American wine. The Concord, for instance.
South America doesn't have native grapes.

Has anyone here drunk one of such wines?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 02:41
Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century. Despite the 16th century narrative of Arthur Barlowe dealing with Walter Raleigh's expedition of 1584 to the New World, where he wrote that the peoples of the area drank wine "while the grape lasteth" and other beverages he described as water "sodden with Ginger in it, and blacke Sinamone, and sometimes Sassafras, and diuers other wholesome and medicinable hearbes" the true identity of the beverages compiled by Barlowe are unknowable and his narrative rather suspect since no other early English adventurer made such a claim. Further the first full account by the English in the Northeast dealing with the Amerind larder--Thomas Harriot's Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia (1586)--made no reference to any distilling of the grape although he did make mention of their eating the natural fruit. Of course that is not to say that the pre-Columbian Amerind did not make fermented beverages from other edibles, but sorry no reliable reports on the grape. Here have some balche to console your expectations. Of course you can always soak away your despondency in any of the variants known as chicha, but alas no wine.

Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Jan 2011 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 05:14
I'm overjoyed to hear that soon I'll be able to purchase wine from the fabled Republic of Georgia in my local stores.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 11:14
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century...


I said Native American wine; not wine produced by Native Americans. Another straw man?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 11:54
Do you mean wine produced by native American grapes? Thanks to phylloxera pretty well all successful wine grapes are a European/American hybrid. Oddly enough, it occurs to me, since mostly it has European stock on American roots instead of the other way around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 12:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century...


I said Native American wine; not wine produced by Native Americans. Another straw man?
 
Not when you put those capital letters into the equation...besides if you are going to discuss grapes then the distinction required involves a totally different vocabulary [i.e. wild, domestic, varietal etcetera]. And if you've ever tried to make wine from the wild grape of North America you would realize that the resulting product tastes like chalk! For someone with superficial acquaintances with much of the content on AE you sure intrude a lot with your irrelevant two-cents even in threads that are meant to be fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 13:38
Chilean wine is quite excellent but its origin is quite besides the point here. I trust Armenian wine makers will seize this opportunity to market their products in Europe and North America, and maybe we can have a sampling. As of yet I have not seen any Armenian wines on the shelves, but maybe I haven't looked well enough.
 
What's interesting in extention of this discovery is how it affects the debate over the origin of wine, from where it first spread, how and when.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 13:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Do you mean wine produced by native American grapes? Thanks to phylloxera pretty well all successful wine grapes are a European/American hybrid. Oddly enough, it occurs to me, since mostly it has European stock on American roots instead of the other way around.


Strangely enough, today the only non-hybrid European grapes are in Chile. Drink Chilean wine! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 15:34
Good gracious Pinguin now you are an oenologist! Will surprises never end? We will overlook the fact that Chileans identified humble carmenere as merlot until a "frog" told them they were wrong in the 1990s! Now shall we talk about pais, the grape that is. I'll be sipping Madeira while I await your new outrage...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 18:55
In any case, if you want to drink real European wine you must go Chilean. The other wines are mutants ! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 21:50
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Chilean wine is quite excellent but its origin is quite besides the point here.


I like Chilean wine a lot, but I would like to taste it in Chile. In order to transfer wine over seas you need to put a lot of chemicals to avoid delivering vinegar. I'm sure we're loosing a lot of the original taste of Chilean wine in Europe.

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:



I trust Armenian wine makers will seize this opportunity to market their products in Europe and North America, and maybe we can have a sampling. As of yet I have not seen any Armenian wines on the shelves, but maybe I haven't looked well enough.
 
What's interesting in extention of this discovery is how it affects the debate over the origin of wine, from where it first spread, how and when.


Well, I am not surprised. I would expect wine to have been produced close to where agriculture first started. Anatolia, Mesopotamia, eastern Mediterranean is where I would put my cents if I had to guess before this. The Nairi/Urartu lands had advanced agriculture (lake Van is there) very early anyway.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 22:06
Sorry old boy...your clarets are green and, naturally are not real "clarets" at all. Appellation Controlle and all that. Might as well just go for M[ad] D[og] 20/20...
 
 
 
 
Now I do know a pair of old ladies who would love to offer you a glass of elderberry wine...the Brewsters just live up the street.


Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Jan 2011 at 22:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 01:57
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


I like Chilean wine a lot, but I would like to taste it in Chile. In order to transfer wine over seas you need to put a lot of chemicals to avoid delivering vinegar. I'm sure we're loosing a lot of the original taste of Chilean wine in Europe.


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 01:59
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 


What's that? It isn't wine, of course, but---
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 02:33
Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 

Winemaking the Armenian Way

From http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/winery-oldest-armenia-110111.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1

A group of archaeologists working in Armenia had something to toast in the new year: they announced that they had unearthed a surprisingly advanced winemaking operation, discovered in a cave hear a remote Armenian village. The operation dates back 6,000 years-making it the earliest known site in the world for wine-making with grapes!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 09:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused



 
Gato Negro, one of my least favourite wines ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 16:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Now I do know a pair of old ladies who would love to offer you a glass of elderberry wine...the Brewsters just live up the street.
 
And are also always ready with a comfortable resting place afterwards.
 
(I wonder how many orther people caught that. Tempus really fugit sometimes.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 19:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused





I think you missed my point. First of all I've been drinking Gato Negro mostly. What I meant was that e.g the same brand tastes better in Chile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 19:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 


Thanks DrG! I think there is something wrong with the links though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:16
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused



 
Gato Negro, one of my least favourite wines ever.


Yes, it is a good brand, but it tastes better in bottles


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:18
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

...

I think you missed my point. First of all I've been drinking Gato Negro mostly. What I meant was that e.g the same brand tastes better in Chile.


I don't agree. I drunk Chilean brands abroad and they tasted the same to me. And I bet the most selected wines are hardly tasted by local Chileans. My example of wine in tetrapack package was to higlight the fact in Chile the masses buy cheapest wines that what is export. You can buy here 2 liters of Gato Negro for 2 bucks Confused. I know abroad you can't buy much with 10 dollars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 03:49
I've had Chilean wine in Canada, Mexico, Colombia and Ecuador-it's tasted the same in all four countries-delicious.

Edited by whalebreath - 14 Jan 2011 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 06:00
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 


Thanks DrG! I think there is something wrong with the links though.
 
Here's the News release:
 

Winemaking the Armenian Way

Vitis VininiferaA group of archaeologists working in Armenia had something to toast in the new year: they announced that they had unearthed a surprisingly advanced winemaking operation, discovered in a cave hear a remote Armenian village. The operation dates back 6,000 years-making it the earliest known site in the world for wine-making with grapes!

 

This exciting new discovery was reported in the peer-reviewed Journal of Archaeological Science on Tuesday, January 11, 2011. Journalists from the Associated Press, The New York Times, Washington Post, and National Geographic News Online, among others, contacted Penn Museum experts to get feedback and perspective on this latest discovery from Dr. Patrick E. McGovern, Scientific Director of the Biomolecular Archaeology Laboratory and author of the award-winning, Uncorking the Past: The Quest for Wine, Beer, and Other Alcoholic Beverages, Univ. California, 2010/2011, and from Dr. Naomi F. Miller, Research Project Manager, Near East Section, for National Geographic.

"99% of the wine we drink today stems from that earliest grapevine domestication event that now seems clearly to have taken place in that region."
- Dr. Pat McGovern

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 17:52
Doc G. There was the Vitis Rotundifolia which them folks up in North Carolina call the Scuppernong, which is supposedly native to the region. But, no record of the local Amerindians drinking any wine prior to the arrival of Thunderbird, though perhaps some of those Lumbee landowners partook of wines shipped in from France back in Brett and Miss Charlotte's time.

For Penguin. Yes, the masses in Chile buy cheaper quality wines than those exported for sale. Indeed, sir, that is no accident, and it is precisely how Chile built up its reputation as a producer of quality wines. An Argentine friend once complained to me that the very best Argentine wines would only be found in their provinces of origin, while the second best ended up in B.A., and the dregs were exported, thereby giving Argentine wines an undeservedly mediocre reputation. Whereas, he noted, Chile did just the opposite and was reaping the rewards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 20:15
Oh no! Lirelou is attempting to open genetic warfare! Muscadine are something else entirely although those ingenious Spaniards at Saint Augustine in the 16th century--when they were not busy sicking Fido on the locals, if one listens to Pinguin and Carch--did cultivate the muscadine berry to make a port-like wine. Scuppernog of course also derives from the muscadine, but hey that was a century later and an added ingredient to that concoction is raisins!!LOL Vitis Rotundifolia is a Vitacaea vitis muscadinia and technically not a  Vitacaea vitis vinifera but this is not the first time we have encountered problems with old Linnaean taxonomy. Anyway by the early 19th century almost all the states of the South had muscadine "wine" in some form. Whether they were distributing this "firewater" to the Amerinds is quite doubtful.
 
Now, with all of this crowing over Chilean wines everyone has forgotten the multiplicity of private wineries scattered throughout the United States from Washington down to Texas, continuing a diversification seen earlier in late 19th century New York. Now not that I am a "wine snob" but the thought of imbibing anything that comes in a carton-like container brings the rank image of college freshmen guzzling anything that might give them a buzz! But then I would not purchase a claret from any place other than that of the Garonne Valley just as I would not sip any sherry not carrying the name Jerez! As for anything processed industrially in all that metal, give me a break. I do not consider the torturing of the palate in that manner healthy!Wink If that makes me a wine snob, so be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 20:29
Actually, some Chilean wine companies own wineries in the U.S., and also foreigners own wineries in Chile. Wine is an international industry, but Chile has a priviledged climate for wines. That's all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 20:42
Hey, don't look at me, Doc. I started off on Silver Satin ("it's charcoal filtered") and 'Thunder-chicken", and within the past few months have imbibed some very fine North Carolina genuine Corn 'shine', which was exceptionally smooth. However, when in Spain, I far prefer Duque de Alba, when in France, an Armagnac from Eauze, and when in Mexico, Tequila Siete Leguas, preferably when someone else is picking up the tab.Wink 
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