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You cannot see all the possb' of your actions

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literaryClarity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: You cannot see all the possb' of your actions
    Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 16:06
possb' = possibilities (I couldn't fit it in)

Then it follows you don't actually have true choice.  Because if you had then you'd actually see through to the end of your action and if it was something you actually wanted or not wanted you could consciously indefinitely postpone the event of your taking any action which did not agree with you, which would make true choice possible.

That's why artificial intelligence is so hard to master if not outright impossible because what someone is essentially trying to program is a robot that can see through to the very end of the sequence of some action that it will choose to take.  That is given its intelligence parameters at the given moment, it will act intelligently upon upon some idea in such a way that hundreds of years down the line it could respond by saying "I basically chose for that to happen and absolutely nothing was unexpected for the time frame of the universe's existence."  And if it couldn't then it is nothing more than a toy of the maker who outlined its very mode of existence.  But if a robot could, that'd be some crazy freakazoid robot.

People don't have this problem with themselves because they are within the realm of their biological parameters that they accept that they have to do certain things and then everything else by comparison has the element of illusory choice.  Human nature thus gives rise to subjects like morality and ethics given that they are only expected to last a definite amount of time before expiration and are expected to act in a certain way.  Choice then becomes the measure by which a person is assessed for intelligence involving the range where pursuit of actions have been carried out with enough foresight they benefit all of mankind or contribute only to its degradation.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Histro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2015 at 11:34
Sometimes you can see the outcomes of your reactions before you do them. If you are given two choices you can easily guess the outcome of each choice is. 
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fantasus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2015 at 12:49
And? ..We are humans, not all knowing "god like" beings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2015 at 16:57
There is a theory that we have free will not because we have wisdom but because we can share our wisdom or represent our reasons and determinism and indeterminism is irrelevant.   This theory's view of of free will could be considered as a practical result of evolutionary sophistication, as in emergent complexity, which should not mean it has no metaphysical ramifications.  It's a theory of practical free will as opposed to some absolutist understanding  of free will in a "spiritual" sense.

My intuition is that we will find that our brains do a kind of "quantum" computing that functions at a level of complexity beyond anything we have imagined up to this point.  It is not so much that quantum theory destroys determinism absolutely but that our reasons operate in a cognitive space that has no reasons.  Imagination is not just a reshuffling of reality it represents and alternative reality to which the mundane physical reality of the senses can be compared and explored and perhaps even altered in subtle ways.   

Practical free will of course will due for almost anything we wish to discuss just as Newtonian physics is sufficient for most engineering.  Speculations like mine are neither needed nor necessarily desirable unless you are addicted to prime causes.  Wink 


Edited by wolfhnd - 03 Sep 2015 at 16:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2015 at 05:44
The Stoic idea of free will is 
like a dog tied to a cart,
it can either choose to go along with the cart.
or it will be dragged along with the cart, unwilling.

Sometimes when you hit your head against the wall,
the wall moves.  Just don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

I am not sure that free will is ever "practical," free will consists of stepping outside of the herd, and the herd doesn't like that.  Much easier to go with the flow and follow the ass in front of you, mooo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2015 at 06:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The Stoic idea of free will is 
like a dog tied to a cart,
it can either choose to go along with the cart.
or it will be dragged along with the cart, unwilling.

Sometimes when you hit your head against the wall,
the wall moves.  Just don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

I am not sure that free will is ever "practical," free will consists of stepping outside of the herd, and the herd doesn't like that.  Much easier to go with the flow and follow the ass in front of you, mooo!

What a cynical person you have become.

I refer you once again to Wild Justice all you have to do is abandon your absolutist mind set. Smile 

What is not practical is to always do what is in your apparent best interest as an individual without consideration of others.  As with all social animals greed will eventually catch up with you and you will be punished.

You have to choose to do what is right which often means follow the herd but sometimes you need to offer a warning if there is a lion ahead.  Not following the herd is a matter of situational morality. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2015 at 03:48
Oh, I am not a Stoic, but I do think it is a wonderful image.  My little doggie on a walk knows that half the time if she resists me, I will give into her.

What absolutist mind set? sometimes when you hit your head against a wall, the wall moves.

Lincoln and another lawyer were riding along, arguing about self-interest (Lincoln's position) and altruism (the other lawyer's position), riding around the corner they came across a big sow stuck in a mud puddle.  Lincoln got of his horse and waded into the puddle, lifting the sow out and getting filthy in the process.  Lincoln's companion said, "see! altruism!"  Lincoln replied, "that wasn't altruism, if I had left the sow there, I would have felt bad all day."
We are social animals, and even in our self-interest, we consider some, (while admittedly, probably neglect others).

No, sometimes, not following the herd is going against the tyranny of the majority, and in not following it, the action can set a new precedent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knhumphrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 11:24
If you already knew the action to take which will lead you to the conclusion you seek, would it any longer be considered a choice?

So, I argue in essence, yes we have true choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 16:32
Originally posted by Knhumphrey Knhumphrey wrote:

If you already knew the action to take which will lead you to the conclusion you seek, would it any longer be considered a choice?

So, I argue in essence, yes we have true choice.


But circumstances will dictate which choice we make, and whether the choice made will in fact be the correct one, with outcome that we desire.

A typical case is war fighting. Decisions are made on the intelligence available, and the ability of the friendly force to overcome any obstacles raised by opposing forces.

So the question arises-do we have any choice? Do we place our forces at a greater risk by taking a certain course of action, although the end goal could be reached, or do we protect our forces and possiblt/probably not achieve our end goal.

It's not all black and white.

(I'm reminded of the military axiom,“NO BATTLE plan ever survives first contact with the enemy,” Helmuth von Moltke, a 19th-century head of the Prussian army, famously observed.)

The mention in another post of artificial intelligence is frightening. In such a scenario, I could easily see the AI placing the end goal at the top of the tree, with human safety as a lower priority.



Edited by toyomotor - 14 Jan 2018 at 16:36
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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