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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 21:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So, you claim Las Casas lied?
 
Considering that Las Casas had nothing to do with that print (which is not the product of his hand or any other subject of their Catholic Majesties) and the mention of the incident is very singular in the context of the Brevisima Relacion de la Destruccion de las Indias--which was prepared not as history but as polemical advocacy decades later--why not look at the passage detailing the actions of an unnamed governor of Tierra Firme:
 
El ano de mil y quinientos y catorce paso a la Tierra Firme un infelice gobernador, crudelisimo tirano, sin alguna piedad ni aun prudencia...este gobernador y su gente invento nuevas maneras de crueldades y de dar tormentos a los indios, porque descubriesen y les diesen oro. Capitan hubo suyo que en una entrada que hizo por mandado del para robar y extirpar gentes, mata sobre cuarenta mil animas, que vido por sus ojos un religioso de Sant Francisco que con el iba, que se llamaba Fray Francisco de Sant Roman, metiandolos a espada, quemandolos vivos, y echandolos a perros bravos, y atormentandolos con diversos tormentos.
 
The full text is on line here:
 
 
Hmm 1514 who could this possibly be? Why it must be Pedro Arias Davila (then 74 years old!) who was sent to Darien to investigate complaints against Vasco Nunez de Balboa in his encounters with Enciso and Nicuesa (the archival records survive, by the way). We know what happened to Balboa in 1519 and we need not rely on Las Casas since Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo was a witness, not Las Casas, and essentially Arias Davila was a terror to all. However, we can not blame him directly for the supposed expedition described above and the unnamed "captain" has only five possibilities: Juan de Ayora, Gaspar de Espinosa, Fernandez de Cordoba, Francisco Pizarro and wonder of wonders, Diego de Almagro. Now we know that Arias Davila reached Tierra Firme with 19 ships and 1,500 "settlers" many of them soldiers, however, more than 500 of them died almost immediately so we certainly can not assign these events to 1514. Arias Davila had founded a new town Panama more or less at the same time he had "eliminated " Balboa and moved there in 1524 when he made that town his capital. It was from there that he sent Fernandez de Cordoba southward in search of "treasure"...you want to know what happened to him? He met the same fate as Balboa--executed on the governor's order at Panama in 1526. But by then, good old Arias Davila had entered into a new "contract" with you guessed it Pizarro and Almagro. These latter two were luckier in their dealings with Arias Davila, who agreed to be bought out and retired to Nicaragua (Leon, where he died in 1531). But that's another story. As to the 40,000 well Las Casas was never good with numbers and no one defends them...not even the late Lewis Hanke.
 
There are two nice little monographs on Arias Davila, both by Carmen Mena Garcia:
 
_____. Pedraria Davila o la Ira de Dios. Sevilla: Imprenta de la Universidad, 1992.
 
_____. Sevilla y las Flotas de Indias. La Gran Armada de Castilla del Oro, 1513-1514. Sevilla: El Monte, 1998.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Jan 2011 at 21:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 02:03
Fellow. Don't deffend the Spaniard. Particularly, do not deffend those brutes that came to the Americas before the crown tammed them. I have enough evidence of theirs cruelty in Chile, that is well documented by history, that the case doesn't depend only in the testimony of Las Casas.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 02:18
Well since this is a thread about dogs, I guess I should let you get off a few barks for the amusement of dedicated bird watchers who might find the vision of a penguin barking quite an observable novelty. The past needs no defense since it is beyond reach and I must admit it is quite foolish to spend one's time prosecuting ghosts but then to each their personal goblins. At least Carcharadon's Snidely Whiplashes are pretty much alive today...be they fully guilty or entirely innocent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 02:20
Yes, it is about dogs. Right on. Let's forget Spaniards and get focussed in dogs.

I like huskies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 10:45
About the use of dogs in war one can also read this volume: Dogs of War: Canine Use in Warfare (by David Karunanithy):
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Jan 2011 at 10:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 13:30
Here is an interesting article about a special case of how the Spaniards used their dogs against sexual minorities among the Native Americans:
 
 

Quote Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Mastiffs

Balboa Throws the Indians Who Have Committed the Abominable Crime of Sodomy to be Torn to Bits by Dogs. Theodore de Bry, Engraving for America, 1590.10 


Spanish colonizers, from royalty to soldier to padre, believed that American Indians were intellectually, physiologically, and spiritually immature, if not actual animals. In the area eventually known as California, the genocidal policies of the Spanish Crown would eventually lead to a severe population crash: numbering one million at first contact, California Indians plummeted to about ten thousand survivors in just over one hundred years. Part of this massive loss were third-gender people, who were lost not by passive colonizing collateral damage such as disease or starvation, but through active, conscious, violent extermination. Speaking of the Chumash people living along the southern coast (my grandmothers tribal roots), Pedro Fages, a Spanish soldier, makes clear that the soldiers and priests colonizing Mexico and what would become California arrived with a deep abhorrence of what they viewed as homosexual relationships. In his soldiers memoir, written in 1775, Fages reports:

I have substantial evidence that those Indian men who, both here and farther inland, are observed in the dress, clothing, and character of women, there being two or three such in each village, pass as sodomites by profession (it being confirmed that all these Indians are much addicted to this abominable vice) and permit the heathen to practice the execrable, unnatural abuse of their bodies. They are called joyas, and are held in great esteem. Let this mention suffice for a matter which could not be omitted, on account of the bearing it may have on the discussion of the reduction of these natives, with a promise to revert in another place to an excess so criminal that it seems even forbidden to speak its name. . . . But we place our trust in God and expect that these accursed people will disappear with the growth of the missions. The abominable vice will be eliminated to the extent that the Catholic faith and all the other virtues are firmly implanted there, for the glory of God and the benefit of those poor ignorants.

California third-gender people performed crucial acts of mediation between life and death in a role that has been termed "undertaker" but was much more than grave digger, and whose sexual partners historically were normative men, not other third-genders. Much of what little we know about third gender joyas (Spanish for jewels) is limited to observations like that of Fages, choked by Eurocentric values and mores. The majority of Spanish soldiers and priests were not interested in learning about California Indian culture and recorded only as much as was needed to dictate spiritual and corporeal discipline and/or punishment; there are no known recorded interviews with a joya by either priest or Spaniard, let alone the salvage ethnologists who arrived one hundred years later.

While the Spanish priests disciplinary methods might be strict and intolerant, they were at least attempting to deal with joyas and joya relationships in ways that allowed these Indians to live, albeit marginalized and shamed.

Spanish soldiers had a different, less patient method. They threw the joyas to their dogs. Shouting the command Tomalos! (take them, or sic em), the Spanish soldiers ordered execution of joyas by specially bred mastiffs and greyhounds. The dogs of the conquest, who had already acquired a taste for human flesh (and were frequently fed live Indians when other food was unavailable), were the colonizers weapon of mass destruction. In his history of the relationship between dogs and men, Stanley Coren explains just how efficient these weapons were: The mastiffs of that era . . . could weigh 250 pounds and stand nearly three feet at the shoulder. Their massive jaws could crush bones even through leather armor. The greyhounds of that period, meanwhile, could be over one hundred pounds in thirty inches at the shoulder. These lighter dogs could outrun any man, and their slashing attack could easily disembowel a person in a matter of seconds.

Columbus brought dogs along with him on his second journey and claimed that one dog was worth fifty soldiers in subduing the Natives. On September 23, 1513, the explorer Vasco Nunez de Balboa came on about forty indigenous men, all dressed as women, engaged in what he called preposterous Venus. He commanded his men to give the men as a prey to his dogges, and the men were torn apart alive. Coren states matter-of-factly that "these dogs were considered to be mere weapons and sometimes instruments of torture." By the time the Spaniards had expanded their territory to California, the use of dogs as weapons to kill or eat Indians, particularly joyas, was well established.

Was this violence against joyas classic homophobia (fear of people with same-sex orientation) or gendercide? I argue that gendercide is the correct term. As Maureen S. Heibert comments:

Gendercide would then be . . . an attack on a group of victims based on the victims gender/sex. Such an attack would only really occur if men or women are victimized because of their primary identity as men or women. In the case of male gendercide, male victims must be victims first and foremost because they are men, not male Bosnians, Jews, or Tutsis. Moreover, it must be the perpetrators themselves, not outside observers making ex-poste analyses, who identify a specific gender/sex as a threat and therefore a target for extermination. As such, we must be able to explicitly show that the perpetrators target a gender victim group based on the victims primary identity as either men or women.

Or, I must add, as a third gender?

Consider the immediate effect of Balboas punishment of the sodomites: when local Indians found out about the executions upon that filthy kind of men, the Indians turned to the Spaniards as if it had been to Hercules for refuge and quickly rounded up all the other third-gender people in the area,  spitting in their faces and crying out to our men to take revenge of them and rid them out of the world from among men as contagious beasts. This is not homophobia (widely defined as irrational fear of or aversion to homosexuals, with subsequent discrimination against homosexuals); obviously, the Indians were not suddenly surprised to find joyas in their midst, and dragging people to certain death went far beyond discrimination or culturally condoned chastisement. This was fear of death; more specifically, of being murdered.

What the local indigenous peoples had been taught was gendercide, the killing of a particular gender because of their gender. As Heibert says in her description of gendercide above, It must be the perpetrators themselves, not outside observers making ex-poste analyses, who identify a specific gender/sex as a threat and therefore a target for extermination. Now that the Spaniards had made it clear that to tolerate, harbor, or associate with the third gender meant death, and that nothing could stand against their dogs of war, the indigenous community knew that demonstrations of acquiescence to this force were essential for the survival of the remaining community, and both the community and the Spaniards knew exactly which people were marked for execution.

Thus the killing of the joyas by Spaniards was, indeed, "part of a coordinated plan of destruction" - gendercide, yet another strategy of genocide.

This tragic pattern in which one segment of indigenous population was sacrificed in hopes that others would survive continues to fester in many contemporary Native communities where people with same-sex orientation are no longer part of cultural legacy but feared, discriminated against, and locked out of tribal and familial homes. We have mistakenly called this behavior "homophobia" in Indian Country; to call it gendercide would certainly require rethinking the assimilation of Euro-American cultural values and the meaning of indigenous community.

[this is an excerpt from my (Deborah A. Miranda ) article Extermination of the Joyas: Gendercide in Spanish California, forthcoming in The Gay and Lesbian Quarterly.]

 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 12:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:42
ROTFLMAO! The above post is a perfect example on how idiots let loose into the realm of historiography are more than dangereous they become mental aberrants.
 
Wonder of wonders does not the engraving look familiar? On this thread we provided a detailed analysis on the De Bry engraving [made in Europe in 1594 by someone who had not seen an Amerind in his life nor was at all familiar with Spanish dress at the beginning of the 16th century] when presented as an illustration of the Las Casas narrative, and now we see it again and the Amerinds are now transformed into "trans-gendered" victims of Spanish homophobia. What's even worse, Balboa is made the subject of the engraving, which--frankly--labels these supposed "investigators of history" little more than dolts in search of a cause.
 
This engraving, as well as a host of others, were prepared by De Bry as illustrations to new editions of Girolamo Benzoni's Historia nuovo (1565) undertaken in 1594 and 1596, for by then this work had become the stock-in-trade of the Protestant polemic and the Calvinist press operating from Geneva to Frankfurt. Interestingly enough one of the best dissections of these engravings was undertaken by the Swedish scholar Sverker Arnoldsson in his La Leyenda Negra (Goteborg, 1960). Strange that Carcharadon, ever eager to drop "authoritative" names, fails to mention him.What is even funnier is that Pierre Chaunu addressed the implications of all the folderol written in this tone back in 1964 in his now classic "La legende noire antihispanique" (Revue de psychologie des peuples, Caen:1964, pp. 88-223).
 
To have all of this nonsense regurgitated once again indicates that old agiprop is all to the well-and-good particularly when the audiences are ignorant in both history and historiography. Talk about old dogs, Carcharadon has just presented one!
 
Well as the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss...


Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Jan 2011 at 23:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:12
Well,

When the river sounds stones carry (Spanish saying).

Please, don't try to convince the public that Spaniards were saints, particularly that bunch of primitive, analphabet ignorants that made the large part of the conqueror's ranks. They weren't saints but lumpen. Remember that the Spanish crown itself has to control those brutes.



Edited by pinguin - 14 Jan 2011 at 01:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:28
They are "brutes" when it's convenient for your posits and "saints" when you change the argument. At least Carcharadon is consistent in his madness. You on the other hand are more temperamental than an obese diva trotting the boards of the opera house.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 09:30
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

ROTFLMAO! The above post is a perfect example on how idiots let loose into the realm of historiography are more than dangereous they become mental aberrants.
 
Wonder of wonders does not the engraving look familiar? On this thread we provided a detailed analysis on the De Bry engraving [made in Europe in 1594 by someone who had not seen an Amerind in his life nor was at all familiar with Spanish dress at the beginning of the 16th century] when presented as an illustration of the Las Casas narrative, and now we see it again and the Amerinds are now transformed into "trans-gendered" victims of Spanish homophobia. What's even worse, Balboa is made the subject of the engraving, which--frankly--labels these supposed "investigators of history" little more than dolts in search of a cause.
 
This engraving, as well as a host of others, were prepared by De Bry as illustrations to new editions of Girolamo Benzoni's Historia nuovo (1565) undertaken in 1594 and 1596, for by then this work had become the stock-in-trade of the Protestant polemic and the Calvinist press operating from Geneva to Frankfurt. Interestingly enough one of the best dissections of these engravings was undertaken by the Swedish scholar Sverker Arnoldsson in his La Leyenda Negra (Goteborg, 1960). Strange that Carcharadon, ever eager to drop "authoritative" names, fails to mention him.What is even funnier is that Pierre Chaunu addressed the implications of all the folderol written in this tone back in 1964 in his now classic "La legende noire antihispanique" (Revue de psychologie des peuples, Caen:1964, pp. 88-223).
 
To have all of this nonsense regurgitated once again indicates that old agiprop is all to the well-and-good particularly when the audiences are ignorant in both history and historiography. Talk about old dogs, Carcharadon has just presented one!
 
Well as the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss...
 
The non authencity of De Brys engravings are already well known. He was after all not an eywhitness to the atrocities in the Americas, so his drawings were drawn from narratives. That is why they are not ethnographically correct.
But on the other hand the brutalities he shows are going back to accounts written by eyewhitnesses and they captures the overall impact that the violence had on its victims.
The above picture can be seen more as a symbol of the atrocities that affected the Amerindians.
 
And do not forget that the so called Black Legend in many cases seems to have been transformed into a White Legend under the pen of revisionist schoolars.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 10:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 11:02
In this context one can also mention that hunting Amerindians with dogs also has occurred in South America even in modern times, for example in Colombia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 11:53
By the way DrG or Pinguin, do you know of any archeological/osteological remains of the dogs of the conquest, ie the dogs that the Spanish used in the Americas? Maybe you have some references to excavation reports or similar?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 13:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

They are "brutes" when it's convenient for your posits and "saints" when you change the argument. ...


I am not guilty that Spaniards are so inconsistent. A mixture of brutes and saints, indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 13:24

Go read The Tempest, Pinguin and learn something about human nature and as for you Carch, a refresher in Archaeology 101 should inform you as to why your request is preposterous.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 13:31
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Go read The Tempest, Pinguin and learn something about human nature and as for you Carch, a refresher in Archaeology 101 should inform you as to why your request is preposterous.

 
Well, archaeological/osteological remains of dogs is not especially unusual in other contexts.
 
Interestingly enough there is a Navajo pictograph in Arizona that by some are thought to depict Spanish war dogs. Also dog bones excavated in the area can perhaps be identified as bones from such Spanish dogs. But there are also authors that are hesitant when it concerns the picture and the remains.


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 14:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 17:37
Yes, isn't it a shame that back in the "old days" people did not have time for such things as pet cemeteries...however I am surprised that you are not screaming bloody murder when contemporary police forces turn their dogs on local miscreants!
 
And that includes Sweden... 
 
Now this is a real interesting picture:
 
 
perhaps a transgender operation is in order for many Swedes after encountering these canines...


Edited by drgonzaga - 14 Jan 2011 at 17:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 09:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Yes, isn't it a shame that back in the "old days" people did not have time for such things as pet cemeteries...
 
 
Well, all dog bones are not found in pet cemetaries. Dog bones can be found in several different contexts as in ordinary settlements, in human graves (but the Spaniards would not have such a custom I presume), in caves, in garbage dumps or in wells (when they dried they could be used for other purposes). But sometimes dogs were also buried in pet cemetaries or in single burials. This phenomena is known even as long back as the stone age.
 
Dogs can also be found in sacrificial contexts.


Edited by Carcharodon - 17 Jan 2011 at 14:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2011 at 10:25
One can also notice that also others than the Spanish used dogs to harass, catch and kill Amerindians. For example in New England the reverend Solomon Stoddard proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs to hunt Indians as they do bears. It is said that the reasoning being that dogs would catch many an natives who would be too light of foot for the townsmen
 
Also the famous Cotton Mather advocated these kind of methods.
 
It was common to compare native Americans with wolves (and other large predators)and treat them like such.
 
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